Interview with Jonathan Berman – Part 2: Sounds and acoustics

MF: Do you also work on the positioning of the instruments depending on the hall?

JB: Absolutely – for me it’s an incredibly important aspect, not just for the quality of sound and comfort of playing but also as a means of expression. Orchestras have, throughout the ages, been set up in many different ways, depending on the repertoire, the time period, the concert hall and for me it is definitely part of the expressive role of a conductor to be flexible with orchestral seating.

Just to begin with, there are many pieces (particularly written in the last 60 years or so) where the composer asks for specific or unusual seating plans of orchestras because the roles played by certain instruments or groups of instruments do not function in the traditional manner.

The most famous extreme example of this would be Stockhausen’ Gruppen where he asks for three separate orchestras to surround the audience creating the most astonishing surround sound effects.

But there are many examples of pieces placed on stage with different layouts. From Stockhausen’s Fünf weitere Sternzeichen where the strings are placed behind the winds, brasses, harps and percussion and space is left between the conductor and the audience for a solo tuba to move around. Or Boulez’s Rituel where 8 groups of players are asked to be as far away from each other as possible on stage (perhaps an early form of social distancing!).

For more traditional repertoire there are some decisions you have to make, for instance where to place your violins. In most music before around 1825(ish), Beethoven, Mozart and Haydn for example, you probably want the 1^st violins on the conductor’s left hand side and the 2^nd violins on the right hand side, so that the audience will experience a stereo, antiphonal effect as the composers often write dialogues between the violins into their music. 

Whereas for some composers like maybe Mahler, Tchaikovsky, Strauss and some more modern composers, you have all violins sitting on the same side so that the sound image comes from the same place and arrives already mixed to the audience. 

There is also a question in every concert about the double basses. Personally, I love big bass sounds and I want the audience to really hear them as the foundation of the music.

I love having bases along the back of an orchestra, as opposed to one side, so that the sound of the lowest note in the orchestra permeates through the orchestra and the whole sound (and intonation) of the orchestra is based on the bases (pun intended). Although of course, it depends on the acoustic properties of the venue and what sounds best.

However, there is some music for which the music written by the composer demands different orchestral textures and timbres. A great example is Stravinsky’s music for which you would place your bass section to one side so that the bass sonorities are clear and more separated from other instruments in the orchestra to best serve the way the music functions.

And then, of course, the complication is that you are not playing in venues that are all the same or with robots but real people. If you want the music in a certain way for the audience, you need to create conditions for the musicians to play to their best. The setting up of the orchestra also becomes a dialogue between your ideals, the venue and the players.

For the recording of the Symphony No. 1 from Franz Schmidt, I really wanted antiphonal violins, because I love that stereo sound and I felt there were a number of passages in the music where that would really add something. However, when we got into the sessions, the violins didn’t feel comfortable being so far away from each other (in the recording studio they struggled to hear each other from opposite ends of the stage). Because there are many passages with a lot of delicate details that they had to really get together as a singular violin section, the leader advised me to put them all on one side, which I did.

Suddenly they played with such confidence as they could all hear each other that it simply sounded so much better and outweighed my initial ideas. (This also shows the value of listening to what the players have to say – especially when they know their own orchestras and venues much better than you do!)

MF: Part of the design of stages is to control the loudness on stage, so the music is not too loud and you manage the noise exposure of the musicians. What are your views and experience on this?

JB: Well this is a very important issue, particularly at the moment. Modern orchestras accept (and even expect) the wearing of earplugs and sound protectors on stage as a normality. They are necessary to protect musicians who are seriously struggling with hearing loss after years of playing in orchestras – and even more in opera pits.

However, it is undeniable that the volume of orchestras has increased over the years. For a number of reasons – the halls we play in are often much bigger, the instruments have changed as well, all of which has developed symbiotically with a changing aesthetics of orchestral and instrumental sound.

In older halls like the Musikverein, you notice how loud a modern orchestra can sound. Whereas if you play in Chicago Symphony Centre, in The Shed in Tanglewood or the Royal Albert Hall, suddenly you have to develop this sound which projects and travels over huge distances.

For me, I have actually learned a lot from this phenomenon. The orchestras whose sound I love (Vienna Philharmonic, Cleveland Orchestra, the Philadelphia Orchestra, Paris Conservatoire Orchestra, Czech Philharmonic, Concertgebouw Orchestra or Berlin Konzerthaus Orchestra) all play (or played) in smaller, old fashioned halls where making music isn’t about projecting your sound to the back of the 5000 seater hall, but more about creating warmth. Practically you don’t need to play too loudly in order for everyone just to hear, and so what you can do is discover more colours and nuances in the sound colours.

This idea has been central to my ideal of orchestral sound and, whilst both conducting and rehearsing, I often find myself asking orchestras to play softer, focusing on tone quality and warmth more than projection.

MF: What is your view on the quality of different styles of halls? Especially between shoebox and vineyard styles.

Yes, very interesting question. The first thing is that all musics are different. And I don’t just mean classical, pop, etc, I also mean Bach, Mozart, Haydn, Stravinsky, Boulez, etc. There is no absolute ‘perfect’ acoustic where you can play all music equally effectively. So even the idea that one style of hall is better acoustically and the other style better visually is not true (for me) because it depends on the repertoire being performed.

I have to say that I have experienced phenomenal concerts in both styles of hall and enjoyed performing in both, but I think the audience perspective is more important – at least it has to take into account the orchestra’s perspective because they are highly unlikely to perform a great concert if they are not comfortable on stage.

I love the social ideal in a vineyard hall (think Berlin Philharmonie, the New World Centre Miami, or the Leipzig Gewandhaus from the 1980s) that the audience is closer to the stage, they have better visual contact, and the hall doesn’t dissect communities by separating the expensive seats from the cheap seats.

However, I sat in many different seats in shoebox concert halls and felt incredibly connected to the stage – particularly when the halls aren’t too big (Concertgebouw, Musikverein, Snape Maltings or Berlin Konzerthaus).

Interesting to note that in the old style halls, the most expensive seats are normally at the front of the balcony which are the furthest from the stage, but of course still close enough to feel very connected.

I do think that we shouldn’t forget that music is an auditory art form. Whilst there are many ways to enjoy concerts, for social reasons, meditating on your day, enjoying the visual drama of the playing of the instruments, or just having a nice nap. But it is when somebody listens to the music actively that a live concert becomes something unique and nothing else in the world comes close. This is the experience we should all be striving for people to have.

MF: Can you share a little more about your favourite venues? There may be some you would advise people to go to or you have some interesting tips about some types of venues.

One of the cleverest halls is the Seiji Ozawa Hall in Tanglewood. It was completed in the 90s and in essence, it is a very traditional and fairly small shoebox with balconies. There is a summer festival there where the Boston Symphony Orchestra goes. The back wall of the hall can be folded out and opens to this sort of amphitheatre of a grass hill where people come, have picnic and listen to music all weekend. It is an amazing place. 

It really has both the inside and the outside atmospheres. You get this wonderful, warm acoustic, and actually, over the six or seven years of conducting concerts there, the increase of moisture in the wood seems to have improved the warmth of the hall.

I think Suntory Hall in Tokyo is one of the most extraordinary halls. There is something magical about the sound there. The sound feels like you are not only close to the stage, but somehow you are also right at the back of the hall.  Music sounds there as one single sound, it has this sort of visceral attack, very clean, very clear. You hear all the details and also the resonance of the space.

Opera houses also are very interesting. They are often quite dry. You have this small box in which the orchestra plays (the orchestra pit), and the sound goes vertically up from this pit, which the audience then hears mostly as reflected sound. You have singers on stage, who sing directly at the audience and the orchestra (allowing both to hear the singers clearly) and for the audience you get a wonderful balance between the reflected orchestral sound and the direct vocal sound. If you go to the Royal Opera House (London) or Palais Garnier (Paris) or even a smaller house like Gyndlebourne or the Comischer Oper (Berlin), the absolute best seats to hear a performance from are right at the very top at the very back (often the cheapest seats), but you will hear the most perfect sound. You hear this sort of shimmering effect, the balanced sound, the voice and the orchestra amplified in its own resonating chamber, as though the pit becomes part of the instrument of the orchestra like the body of a violin or the sound board on a piano. It’s an extraordinary experience.

Actually, almost the worst seats are at the first row of the stalls. At the first row, you are very close to the action visually, but the balance between the direct sound coming from the voice and the sound of the orchestra is unmixed and can sound separated. That’s also why when rehearsing for opera, you have somebody sitting in the front few rows balancing from there – normally if the balance is ok right at the front it will work everywhere else.

MF: For some halls, the acoustic conditions might not always be optimal depending on where you sit. The music you hear on stage could also be very different compared to the music you hear in the rest of the hall. How do you prepare for all this?

There are some concert halls where if you sit in the wrong seat, it might be an expensive seat, but if you sit in the wrong seat, it is really not a good experience. In a really good hall, there are very few differences between the seats.

What happens then is, most of the time, conductors or managers never sit in them. They judge performances from a very specific select set of locations. We forget sometimes that if you sit in a different place, you can hear something different.

An orchestra manager some years ago said to me “Look, you need to sit in every seat”. Because you need to know how every one of your audience feels. He was trying to find solutions to make all his audience happy. If we want to inspire people into music we love and make them hear what we want them to hear, we need to make sure we play well for every single seat.

Practically, to do this as a conductor, you often have somebody assisting you whose job is mostly to walk around the hall and give little notes back about how it sounds in the hall. I also find it hugely useful to have assistants, because they can conduct five minutes whilst you can walk around the hall and listen, so that you can really understand the translation from what it sounds like on the podium to what it sounds like in the hall.

There is another trick that I learned from one of my mentors, a conductor called Stanislav Skrowaczewski. 

He used to occasionally turn 90 degrees to the orchestra, by putting his left ear towards the empty space, to listen to the hall.

You have to work at it a bit, but it gives you a really good sensation of what the hall sounds like, as opposed to when you are facing the orchestra where you hear mostly the direct sounds from the instruments.

Doing this gives you one more bit of information and it allows you can create a better balance between the sound of the orchestra and the reverberation of the hall, hopefully creating a fantastic sounding concert in every seat.

I was also lucky enough to get into the recording studio just before the first lockdown to start recording a cycle of the complete symphonies of the Austrian composer Franz Schmidt. This is part of a bigger project I have set up – ‘The Franz Schmidt Project’ – to promote his music leading up to his 150^th Birthday in 2024.

The backbone of the project will be the complete cycle of his symphonies which I am recording with the BBC National Orchestra of Wales, and through which we will promote Schmidt’s music along with interviews, live performances (throughout the world), radio shows, television broadcasts and talks.

Recording is a fascinating acoustical challenge because microphones don’t pick up sound in the same way ears do – and orchestral sound is a pretty complex sound to begin with!

So in essence, you have three variables on the sound; the playing of the orchestra, the acoustics of the hall and the placing, number, type and balance of microphones.

I recently filmed a series called Postcards from Vienna, where I talk about viennese music. Along with an amazing woman called Emily Ingram (co-founder and CEO at Onjam), we made four episodes of this documentary about classical music along with five other classical music movies. They are not just video performances, but videos that somehow visually draw people into the underlying structures, images, ideas, associations, illusions within a piece of music. All of these movies were trying to create, in different ways, environments for people to get closer to this active way of listening and interacting with music.

Then we did a video of Stravinsky Septet where we created new artworks inspired by artists who connected with the period of Stravinsky’s work. Natalia Goncherova, Sonya Delauney and Lyubov Popov for the first ‘Ballet Russe’ movement, Mark Rothko for the middle movement and then we recreated the process of painting Lee Kransner Abstract Expressionist painting.

Sound reverberation – Part 2: Specialist indices 

If you design a new performance space, you want to know how the musical or speech-based activities will be heard.

Or similarly, you might want to establish the acoustic conditions of an existing performance space.

As part of the assessment, you generally need to ask yourself: 

• is the space going to be too dead or too live for the type of performances planned?
• are the performances going to be clear and/or intelligible to the audience?
• are performances going to sound too quiet or too loud … or just right?
• is the space (especially during musical performances) going to sound too dry or too boomy? 

Part 2 here goes through some specialist acoustic indices that help to objectively answer the above questions.

These indices are:

• the Early Decay Time (EDT).
• the Sound Strength (G).
• the Objective Clarity (C80) or Definition (D50).
• the Early Lateral Fraction Energy (LF).

Rather than showing very technical data and complicated formulas, it intends to shed some light on which parts of the sound reverberation are used to assess the acoustic qualities of a space.

To better understand this section, you could read Sound reverberation – Part 1: Basics first. It explains what the sound reverberation is, how it is measured and what the reverberation time index is.

  Note: this post is based on the following documents:

• Auditorium Acoustics and Architectural Design – Mike Barron;

• Concert halls and Opera Houses – Music, Acoustics and Architecture – Leo Beranek

• ISO 3382-1: 2009 – Acoustics — Measurement of room acoustic parameters — Part 1: Performance spaces

Sound reverberation – Part 1: Basics

Do you work on building projects and would like to know more about sound reverberation so that you can better understand part of the acoustic design? Then this series of posts is for you. 

Part 1 (here) takes you through the very basics of sound reverberation including:

• What sound reverberation is.
• How sound reverberation is measured.
• What the reverberation time is.

Part 2 will shed light on some specialist indices used for the design of spaces for spoken and/or musical performances. 

And finally, Part 3 will explain some of the basic principles of reverberation control.

What is sound reverberation?

Reverberation happens in a space when the sound of a source is reflected into multiple reflections. They build up and decay as they are absorbed by the surfaces and the furnishing.

The reverberation characteristics of a room make its acoustic footprint. A little bit like an instrument responding to an excitation with its own timbre. 

Acousticians study sound reverberation because it directly influences:

• the intelligibility of speech 
• the clarity and warmth of music
• (when it is particularly high) the background noise

Sound reflections are often represented as rays traveling in different directions and arriving at different times. Each ray transports acoustic energy and loses some amount as it travels through the air or hits an obstacle.

The sound reverberation in a space depends on a few different aspects including:

• the acoustic properties of the surfaces and finishes 
• the location of the surfaces 
• the location of the source and the receiver 
• the volume of the space 

The ideal reverberation conditions for a room depend on its use. Some spaces (like classrooms or recording studios) need rather “dead”  reverberation characteristics. Others need a medium reverberation (like assembly halls, theatres for drama, concert spaces for amplified music, etc), whilst others work best when they are very reverberant (large symphony halls for acoustic music, spaces for choral music, etc).

How do we measure sound reverberation?

You can generally study sound reverberation by analysing how the sound energy evolves in a room after a short sound burst or after a source is interrupted (there are other measurement methods but they won’t be discussed here). Its basically observing how a room behaves under a sound excitation. 

You can analyse the reverberated sound energy in different ways:

• in sound pressure level. 
• in duration: how long it takes for some or all the sound to partially or entirely disappear.
• in arrival time: when does the reflected sound arrive to a receiving location. You can split the reverberation into three different parts:
  • the direct sound
  • the early reflections
  • the late reflections

From the representation of sound as rays, you can come up with the diagram to the right commonly called a reflectogram: 

• in frequency: what is the frequency content of the reflected sound. To do this, the sound energy is filtered for different frequency bands that generally range from 63 Hz to 8000 Hz.

  Note: Most buildings are acoustically designed for people to be able to hear, communicate, concentrate or even rest comfortably. So because the human ear is more sensitive at mid-frequencies and the human voice emits sound around the mid-frequencies, the acoustic designer generally concentrates on the reverberation conditions at 500 Hz, 1000 Hz and 2000 Hz. 

Sometimes, it is also important to control the reverberation conditions at low frequencies. This is discussed a little bit more below.  

• in space: where the reflected sound arrives from to a listener, i.e. to the top, to the back, to the bottom or to the sides of the listener’s head.
  

  

Depending on the use of a space and the acoustic characteristics you want to concentrate on, you can either isolate or combine the above aspects.

For example, you can:

• measure how fast the reverberated sound disappears; you will have an idea of how echoey a room might be.
• compare the sound energy arriving within the first 50ms against the total energy; you will have an indication of how intelligible a spoken message could be. 
• compare (during the first 80ms) the energy arriving to the sides of a listener against the energy arriving in any direction; you will have an indication of how surrounded by sound a listener might feel and how broad a source might be perceived (this is particularly useful to know for spaces where acoustic music is played).
• compare the energy of a source with the rest of the reverberated sound against the energy of just the source; you will have an idea on amplification power of a room. 

  Note: the above examples come from very standardised processes, and for ease of understanding, they have been simplified. More details are given in Part 2 of the series. 

All the above aspects are quantified with particular acoustic indices that are psychoacoustic based. 

The section below concentrates on the reverberation time index, which is the starting point of any sound reverberation design.

Part 2 (published soon) will present some specialist indices that are very useful for the design of spaces for spoken or musical performances. 

    Note: you can find more details in the following documents that were reviewed to write these posts:

• Auditorium Acoustics and Architectural Design – Mike Barron;

• Concert halls and Opera Houses – Music, Acoustics and Architecture – Leo Beranek

• ISO 3382-1: 2009 – Acoustics — Measurement of room acoustic parameters — Part 1: Performance spaces

• BB93: acoustic design of schools – performance standards .

Reverberation time (RT or T)

The reverberation time (RT) is the one index that acousticians use to rate or design reverberation characteristics. Practically, it tells you how long it takes for sound to disappear in a room.

Reverberant spaces, like churches, have higher reverberation times than acoustically “dead” spaces, like recording studios.

In more technical terms, you analyse the impulse response and measure how long (in seconds) it takes for the acoustic energy to decay by 60 dB.

As explained above, the impulse response is filtered for different frequency bands (between 63 Hz to 8000 Hz) and the RT is measured from each energy decay. The RT is measured in different frequencies generally ranging from 63 Hz to 8000 Hz. 

  follow on note from above: as mentioned above, the acoustic designer generally concentrates on the reverberation conditions at 500 Hz, 1000 Hz and 2000 Hz, the mid frequencies. Therefore, the RT targets are generally an average of some or all the values of 500 Hz, 1000 Hz and 2000 Hz frequency bands.

Hence T_mf  (used for example in education spaces) which is the average of the reverberation time values at mid frequencies.

Sometines, it will be important to consider the reverberation time at frequencies lower than 500 Hz.

This is the case for medium to large spaces where acoustic music is played. Compared to the mid and high frequencies (500 Hz, 1000 Hz, 2000 Hz, 4000 Hz and 8000 Hz), a controlled increase of the reverberation time at low frequencies (63 Hz, 125 Hz and 250 Hz) create warmer listening conditions.

For Special Education Needs (SEN) classrooms, specific design requirements are in place in a wide range of frequencies, including at the frequency bands 125 Hz and 250 Hz. This is because too much low frequency reverberation can mask the sound of the teacher’s voice and make it harder to clearly hear what (s)he says (see Acoustic Design of SEN (Special Educationnal Needs) classrooms  for more information on the acoustic design of such rooms).

The table below shows some examples of preferable reverberation times for different spaces and music repertoire.

Note the different frequencies you need to consider depending on the situation.  

Examples of preferable reverberation times

Acoustic design of SEN (Special Educational Needs) classrooms

If you design a school, you will probably need to have at least one SEN (Special Educational Needs) classroom.

Given the very specific acoustic design requirements of such spaces, this post sheds light on:

• why the acoustic environment is important for SEN classrooms.
• what type of acoustic environment is suitable for SEN classrooms.
• what you need to think about for the acoustic design of SEN classrooms.

This post mostly draws on the following British documentation:

• BB93: acoustic design of schools – performance standards.
• Acoustic of Schools: a design guide.

Why is the acoustic environment important for SEN classrooms?

Some pupils in SEN classrooms will have special hearing requirements. 

As listed in the Acoustic of Schools: a design guide, these pupils could be those:

Of course, the ability of the teachers to organise and manage the SEN classrooms is paramount. But the acoustic environment also has to be suitable for these pupils to be able to hear, concentrate, learn and communicate. 

What type of acoustic environment is suitable SEN Classrooms?

If you design a (several) room(s) for pupils with special hearing requirements, you need to be aware that the acoustic quality of the environments will have to be a step further compared to most standard school spaces. 

Generally, you will need:

• Quieter environments.
• Less reverberant (or less echoey) environments, especially at low frequencies. Too much low frequency reverberation can mask the sound of the teacher’s voice and make it harder to clearly hear what (s)he says (If you need to better understand what sound reverberation is, you can read Sound reverberation – Part 1: Basics).

Note: For open-plan spaces, BB93 states the following:

“Open plan teaching and learning spaces should not be regarded as a simple alternative to traditional classrooms and may be unsuitable for some children, particularly those with special hearing or communication needs.

In order to fulfill their duties under the Equality Act 37 2010, school client bodies should anticipate the needs of deaf and other disabled children as current and potential future users of the space when open plan accommodation is being considered.”

What do you need to think about for the acoustic design of SEN Classrooms?

Quiet environments

To design quieter environments, you could need to control the noise from various areas. 

First, you need to control the noise from outside. This could include:

• Designing the building façade to control the external noise breaking into the classroom.
• Selecting the right ventilation strategy. The external noise environment could be too loud to ventilate the rooms by simply opening the windows. Even during the hottest days of the year. In this case, you need to set a suitable mechanical ventilation strategy.
  

  Note: under BB93, the internal noise level requirements in schools can be relaxed to improve thermal comfort in summer (during the hottest 200 hours in peak summertime exactly) at the expense of high indoor ambient noise levels. But this relaxation doesn’t apply to SEN classrooms!

Secondly, you need to control the noise from the services installed for the school, like the ventilation systems and/or heating & cooling systems. They are likely to require:

• Attenuators to control the fan noise transmitted through the ductwork.
• If some units (for example fan coil units, heat recovery units, VAV boxes, etc) are hung from the soffit, you could need a dense and sealed suspended ceiling to control the noise from the units themselves. Alternatively, sealed cupboards or encasement systems made with dense materials could be required if the units are in other places of the room.

• Controlling the noise from inside the school by improving the sound insulation of the floors, walls and doors that separate the SEN spaces from other spaces. Zoning the SEN rooms and/or creating buffer spaces around them is also possible.

Less reverberant environments

To create environments that are less reverberant, especially at low frequencies, an efficient acoustic design could involve the following:

• Installing more acoustic absorption on the walls or fixed on/hung from the soffit.
• Installing some materials or elements that absorb more acoustic energy at low frequencies. You can efficiently do this by installing a dense porous suspended ceiling with a (large) cavity above.
• Planning smaller spaces, as the smaller the volume the less reverberant (echoey). SEN rooms are generally smaller anyway, hosting between 4 to 8 pupils most of the time.
• Laying a carpet. On its own, a carpet will not make you achieve the reverberation time you target for a classroom. However, it can help you reduce the need for (expensive) acoustic materials.

Design Note: Sometimes it might not be practically possible to achieve the very stringent sound reverberation requirements for SEN classrooms. 

In this case, you can raise an Alternative Performance Standard (APS). You will need to justify why you can’t practically (and not financially!) achieve the initial requirement and suggest an alternative performance with the help of the acoustic consultant. BB93 documents a thorough procedure to follow for Alternative Performance Standards.

Procurement tip: During the early stages of a school project, it is normal to have minimum specifications for the acoustic absorption materials proposed in each space. They will generally be selected in terms of acoustic absorption Classes (i.e. A, B, C, D, …).

As the detailed design approaches, you will have a better idea of the products you want to use. 

Once the products are selected, it might be useful to ask the acoustic consultant to review the quantities of materials. This will involve gathering the absorption test data for the specific products and re-running the calculations. By doing this, you are likely to reduce the quantities of materials and therefore reduce cost.

Interview of Sir James MacMillan – Part 2: Memorable venues

In the first part  of this interview, James was telling us about his origins, where his passion for music comes from, and the music festival for which he is the founder and artistic director,The Cumnock Tryst. He also talks about his involvement in music education, his vision for teaching music composition and his opinion on why acoustic design is so important for music schools. 

In the second part below, James shares his experience of visiting the Sistine Chapel, in Rome, where The Sixteen orchestra and a string orchestra played his music. He also shares his experience of attending some famous venues either as a performer or as part of the audience.

MF: What are your experiences and opinions on the acoustics of music venues?

JMM: It is something that musicians talk about all the time. We are obsessed about acoustics, we are obsessed about how music sounds in every hall that we go to. Musicians are always comparing acoustical experiences of one hall against another, what kind of music works best in this place, what kind of music works best there.

There has been a revolution in thinking how we approach pre-baroque music both in instrumental music and choral music. That has involved a historical way of thinking and researching what the instruments were like, what the venues would have been like and how various music would have been performed.

A few years ago, The Sixteen (conducted by Harry Christophers) and a string orchestra (the Britten Sinfonia to begin with) were invited to the Sistine Chapel in Rome to perform a piece that I wrote. Now, not many modern performers go to the Sistine Chapel and know what the acoustics of the Sistine Chapel are like. It is not heard much, it is not a big place, but it is where the likes of Palestrina would have directed his choruses. Palestrina and Lasses, who just came to pray, made their great masses just for that space. Yes, the music is shaped by that liturgical, theological and religious aspiration, but the acoustic of the chapel is just as important. The music has to unfold at a certain pace. It can’t be too fast, otherwise it would get lost. It had to be heard properly as it was made at a time where ecclesiasticals were getting worried about people not hearing the words properly.

When we turned up a few years ago to perform the Stabat Mater, no one had any idea of what the hall would sound like. However, as soon as they started playing and singing, I saw the delight and the relief on the musicians faces when they realised what a wonderful space it was. That was an incredible acoustical experiment for all of us.

I also entered the choir gallery where Josquin des Prez had been and Palestrina had sung. Even Allegri who wrote the great Allegri Miserere had been heard by Mozart in that very space. All those musicians had been there before, and there was one wonderful moment when I returned to the little choir garden. I saw Josquin des Prez’s signature scribbled onto the wall. He had written “Josquin was here”. An amazing moment for a composer who loves that tradition and history.

There are some spaces that work incredibly well for certain types of music and singers, whilst others suit instrumental music better.

Orchestral music works better in places like the Concertgebouw in Amsterdam or the Musikverein in Vienna. They are regarded as almost near perfection for music of the classical world, especially for music of the 18^th and 19^th centuries. I certainly hold up these places as the perfect example.

The more modern halls in the UK that work for me are the Bridgewater Hall in Manchester and of course the Symphony Hall in Birmingham. They are the two best halls musicians talk about in the whole of the UK. Musicians much prefer to play there than at the Barbican, in London, or the Royal Festival Hall at the Southbank Centre that are regarded as problematic acoustically (for more information,  read What is Wrong with London’s Concert Halls https://acousticengineering.wordpress.com/2015/03/09/what-is-wrong-with-londons-concert-halls/ written by Trevor Cox). Up here in Scotland, another problematic hall is the Glasgow Royal Concert Hall which lacks the warmth and the depth that the Symphony Hall and the Bridgewater Hall have.

MF: What are your most memorable venues, not just for acoustics, but also for the internal comfort?

JMM: I must single out the Concertgebouw as a very special place. Every musician I know loves performing there. I have conducted there a few times. I have conducted my own music, I have conducted other composer’s music, older music, choirs and orchestras in there. I have also heard choirs and orchestras, sometimes separately sometimes together. It is a very special place, and not just for what you can make of the acoustic. A musician can feel at home in a place like that, the accommodation is very spacious backstage. You can prepare well and there is a wonderful sense that you can relax into the space for rehearsals and prepare psychologically. You are made to feel at home. The initial and sole purpose of the place is for making music excellently.

The conductors have very good spaces. I love the fact that when I go there, I have a very private and comfortable space where I hear nothing. I don’t hear the musicians rehearsing, I am away from the audience and I can be in solitude, which exists until the very moment I go onto the stage. Having that sense of isolation before you go on stage is vital because you live in the music. It is just you and the music, anything else is a distraction. Every conductor has their own way to prepare psychologically for stepping onto the stage. Some do yoga, some contemplate, some pray. It requires a kind of emptying out. You engage with silence, because in that silence you encounter the music, and when you go on stage with only the music in your head, you can perform better. The way a musician prepares is so vital, whether it is a conductor or even an orchestra member. You have to be in a good frame of mind in order to perform at your best. So maybe that is another design aspect to take on board: giving the opportunity to prepare well.

MF:  The Concertgebouw is shoebox-shaped. Another very popular hall shape for concert halls is the “vineyard” shape. Have you got any experience in conducting in these sorts of halls?

JMM:  I have less experience in that kind of hall and I hear different accounts of which halls are good or not. I have heard very different accounts at the Elbphilarmonie, in Hamburg. Some who love it, some who don’t. I don’t know what to make of that. I suppose there might be a little bit more nervousness amongst musicians about that particular shape. I don’t know why but I certainly have less experience of the vineyard shape.

MF: Finally, times are pretty tough for the performing arts world at the moment. How have COVID and lockdown affected you and your activity? (reminder that the interview was done a few weeks ago)

JMM: In some ways, some things haven’t changed. I am a composer and I need silence and solitude to go on with writing music. In a sense, lockdown is life as normal for me and that is the case for most composers. But we don’t live in a bubble, we don’t live in splendid isolation and we know that writing music is a statement of hope for the future.

It is a statement of hope that will go into the hands of interpreters who will then express that music and communicate its message and its meaning to an audience. One writes in a splendid isolation but it is writing for the future. One is writing for ones furloughed or redundant human beings otherwise it is pointless.

Although we live and work in silence, it is not an island of no communication. It has a breathing ground of thought and creativity that eventually is able to get the music out there. So, in that sense, life goes on as usual. 

However, all my performances have come to an end. For every performing musician, nothing is happening. Certainly not in this country. Things are beginning to open up in other countries. I noticed that there are performances in Austria. Some people have been in touch from Denmark and France recently. Even in Wuhan, life has got back to normal with big concerts. These are messages of hope. If it is happening elsewhere, with caution in mind of course, one hopes that life will come back here. I suppose the green shoots are also happening in places like Wigmore Hall which has come back to normal with chamber music concerts performed to smaller audiences.

I met my first orchestra for the first time a few weeks ago. We recorded the video and the audio of new music from young composers that the orchestra will put on its website. I have a recording session with an orchestra for BBC Radio 3 in a few weeks in London. These are incredibly exciting moments and hopefully there will be more in the months to come.

Interview with Sir James MacMillan – Part 1: Origins and The Cumnock Tryst

Back in October, Sir James MacMillan very kindly accepted to answer my questions and I can’t thank him enough for this.

This interview has been split into two parts.

In the first part (here), James tells us about his origins, where his passion for music comes from, and the music festival for which he is the founder and artistic director, The Cumnock Tryst. He also talks about his involvement in music education, his vision for teaching music composition and his opinion on why acoustic design is so important for music schools. 

In the second part (to be published next week), he shares his experience of visiting the Sistine Chapel, in Rome, where The Sixteen orchestra and a string orchestra played his music. He also shares his experience of attending some famous venues either as a performer or as part of the audience.

Enjoy the read

Marc

MF: Hi James, first of all, thank you very much for accepting to take time for this interview. Can you introduce yourself?

JMM: My name is James MacMillan, I am a composer, a conductor, a bit of an academic and more recently I formed a little music festival in Ayrshire (Scotland) called the Cumnock Tryst. I am the founder and the artistic director of it.

MF: Can you tell us a little bit more about the Cumnock Tryst?

JMM: Yes. I come from Cumnock originally, which is the little village where I grew up. It is in the Eastern part of Ayrshire, to the south of Glasgow. Its background and economic traditions is coal mining, but of course that doesn’t exist anymore. My grandfather was a coal miner, like many men in the area all through the 20^th century. During that time he also played music. He was a euphonium player. He played in local brass bands and he sang in his church choir. So, there was an experience of music and a love of music in that community. I remember, it is because of his influence that I wanted to become a musician. He got me my first cornet and took me to my first brass band rehearsals.

Ayrshire is nowadays an area of multiple deprivation. It is not a place where you would expect a high-class arts music festival. So, it raises eyebrows when people see that all this wonderful musical activity is happening there. But it is a place that I remember to be a very musical place and we believe everyone should have access to music, not just those who can afford it. That is part of the ethos that drives what we do.

We bring the great musicians of the world to the Cumnock Tryst. The Sixteen conducted by Harry Christophers, one of the great choirs of the world, has been a few times, the King Singers and the Westminster Cathedral Choir have been. We are working with the Scottish Chamber Orchestra who were going to play this year. We will get them next year.

We have also formed a festival chorus with a lot of local people. This is the on-going project at Cumnock, to bring great music from around the world, to install and continue that musical activity in the area.

With the arrival of the new school [the Barony Campus], our hope is that it will be a catalyst, now that we will have a space to bring larger groups to the town.

MF: So your aspiration for the future is to bring people from different ages and different levels together?

JMM: Yes.

MF: What types of music are performed the Cumnock Tryst?

JMM: All types. Because there has been a strong experience in the area through the generations of choral music, we decided to make choral music quite a regular feature. We get these great choirs coming and we get our chorus singing at their higher level. We have a very wonderful choral director who comes and works with this chorus, and they put on very high standard performances every year.

The British brass band tradition was very strong in the area and it is a tradition that is very much associated with industrial heritage and industrial experience. All the coal mining areas of Scotland and the north of England had high-class brass playing. It is a very particular music culture and we want to feature that with a lot of brass music in the festival.

But we don’t stop there. We realise that chamber music and recitals are very important, so we have some major solo artists who come and play. Steven Osborne, a great pianist, came last year for example. He played Beethoven’s last three piano sonatas as a recital. Nicola Benedetti, who is a patron, (she is from Ayrshire originally and has come a few times), played solo violin (the solo Bach music for example), but also brought a trio and played Ravel, Brahms and so on.

The festival is quite wide-spread and we branch out a lot, we’re bringing a lot of folk musicians from Scotland and elsewhere to perform.

MF: In which venues is the festival organised?

JMM:  We use small venues with very small capacities. Most have three hundred seat capacities, which is fine. The local churches are very good. There is one in particular that has a wonderful acoustic for choral music. People love these venues. There is an attraction about the 19^th century churches; they are very beautiful. Some of the local town halls and village halls are also used. Again, they are small with capacities of 180-200 seats.

But we can still have some sort of recitals. Ian Bostridge, a great English tenor, did a recital to an audience of about 180 in the New Cumnock town hall. He had a mixed program of Mahler, Britten and Schubert.

Although we want to maintain the intimacy of these places, we do want to be able to bring orchestras and larger ensembles to the town.

MF: Can you tell us about your involvement and vision in music education?

JMM: Over the years, I have had an oblique relationship with academia. I have had a life in the past of teaching at universities, but because I conduct a lot, in normal circumstances I would be travelling to different parts of the world to perform, so I haven’t been able to maintain regular teaching in conservatoires or Universities.  Although I always want to conserve some link, as it is important for me to have a link with academia.

I have a visiting professorship at the Royal Conservatoire of Scotland in Glasgow and at the University of St Andrews. I give more of a musicological and theological input in the form of seminars.

Over the last thirty years or so, the British orchestra have been trying to build a new way of working with British schools, which involves not just players but also composers. Instigators are invited into the classrooms to try to encourage composition and creativity, and I have been part of that.

It sometimes involves a freedom in the concept of creativity, there is a lot of improvisation that happens initially. The compositional inspiration can be encouraged by improvising and this is a new way of thinking. It is not a general concept that is accepted worldwide, certainly not in other parts of Europe, and it might be seen as lacking some kind of intellectual discipline.

However, I find it a very useful way not just to engage people with the immediacy of making music, but also to inspire potential composers to think outside the box about how music is made.

I think it can help many types of musicians at different levels of music-making. We have worked with very young children and have tried to make it fun. We have worked with secondary school kids as well as high school kids. We have a project up and running that we are doing through Zoom at the moment, where teenagers are encouraged to write their own music. It has become a major part of what we are doing at the Cumnock Tryst and once we get back to some sort of normality, we will be able to get back into the classroom, doing not just proper improvisations, but actually encouraging them to develop a knowledge of notation. It is not one or the other, it is not free jazz, it is not just free-thinking. It is free to an extent, but we are trying to link it to quite a solid intellectual basis.

We sometimes find there is a divergence of thinking in education. It is either one or the other. Either everything should be free-spirited without reference to the cannon, without reference to the tradition, or the stricter way of thinking is with complete reference to the cannon and everything notated. We are trying to make a melange of the two disciplines. The instincts, the views and the attributes of both can work together. This is a work in progress at the Cumnock Tryst and it seems to be working so far.

MF: How do you find the quality of the music spaces contribute to the musical creativity, the music education and the music performance?

JMM: It is very important for young musicians to sound good in the early stages of their musical development. If they sound good on their instrument, in their voice, in their choir, in their ensemble, to their peers, to their parents and to the local audience that comes to listen, then the delight of music-making is enhanced. And that delight is part of what motivates a young musician to continue.

So, it is vitally important to get the acoustical design right in an educational setting. It should be worked to basics. It should be one of the central considerations in any new build whether it is a school, a community centre or something else. And although we may voice this on the side-lines, we know we don’t have any power, people like myself must continually make up a case for acoustics to be a central educational consideration.

Laboratory or on-site sound insulation rating. Which one to use?

You are probably trying to select dry lining products for your project and can see two different ratings on the acoustic specification (or the mark-ups). 

One is R_w, which is a laboratory sound insulation rating. The other is D_nT,w , the on-site sound insulation rating. 

    Note: for ease of reading we will stick to R_w=lab rating and D_nT,w= on-site rating. But be aware that the terms can vary depending on the situation including the types of spaces separated by the partition, the type of building and the country. 

They both represent the reduction in sound transmission through a building element. In more technical terms, we say they correspond to the airborne sound insulation performance of the element. 

This post explains:

• which sound insulation rating to use for your selection
• what both ratings actually mean and what you use them for
• why, on the acoustic specification, the ratings have different values for a single partition type
• why some partitions only have a laboratory rating
• how to remember which one is which without reading this post again

Which sound insulation rating to use for your selection?

The quick answer is: use the laboratory rating (R_w).

What are the laboratory and on-site sound insulation ratings? and what are they used for?

In practical terms, both ratings represent the difference between the noise levels measured on either side of an element. 

The general principles for the measurements are as follows:

• generate sound in one room, the source room.
• measure the sound level in this source room.
• measure the sound in the room that shares the partition studied, the receiver room. 

Both airborne sound insulation ratings correspond to different types of testing conditions.

The paragraphs below explain this a little bit more.

Laboratory sound insulation rating

The laboratory rating, R_w, is useful for suppliers or manufacturers. This way, they give us an idea of the performances their products can achieve.

In a lab, you test the products in very specific and standardised conditions:

• The samples tested have a set size and they are connected to specific elements.
• The testing rooms have particular sizes, shapes and acoustic characteristics. 
• The performances are measured and calculated in a certain way.

These allow the acoustic consultants to use the laboratory rating as a benchmark for their design. Although they know there is more work to do to achieve what they need.

On-site sound insulation rating

The on-site rating, D_nT,w , is given as a requirement in most standards, guidelines and building regulations. 

It represents the sound insulation performance you are contracted to achieve once a building is completed. 

Therefore, this is the sound insulation performance the acoustic engineer will test during the commissioning of a building.

Ok, but why are the ratings different on the acoustic specification?

As mentioned above, the testing conditions in a lab are very particular.

They are designed in a way to minimise the sound transmissions around the samples.

In technical terms, you call it sound flanking. It happens via:

• the connections
• the services
• the flooring systems/slabs
• the ceiling systems/slabs
• other paths that connect the building elements

Acoustic consultants know that the sound flanking is more important in actual buildings than in laboratories. So they underestimate the lab rating by applying a negative correction to take account of the sound flanking. 

This correction is generally around 5-7 dB for drylining partitions. It is less for masonry partitions. 

    Note: if you are working with “lightweight” partitions that need to achieve ratings with an extension at low frequencies, you might need to use a higher correction. In other words, you need to underestimate even more the laboratory rating.

This is particularly the case for timber constructions.

Be aware that, even if you apply this correction, you are not exempt from spending time designing the junction details between the partitions and the other building elements. 

And why do some partitions only have one rating?

Because you either won’t have to or won’t be able to test them.

Examples are:

• partitions with openings, doors, serving hatches or windows/vision panels 
• service risers
• lining or boxing systems for services and structural elements
• lift shafts

How to remember which one is which?

Any easy way to remember is to look at the subscripts. 

As described above, both ratings are based on the sound level difference measured between a source room and a receiving room separated by the partition studied.

R_w is the rating measured in a laboratory under standardised conditions, i.e. the same for all the measurements. It can be used as a benchmark and the measurements are weighted. Hence the “w” in the subscript (it corresponds to the way it has been calculated but we won’t go into details here). 

D_nT,w is the rating measured on-site under building conditions, i.e. different for most measurements. So as well as weighting the measurements (“w” in the subscript), you also need to standardise them. Hence the “nT” in the subscript.

    Note: Standardising the measurements takes account of the specific sound reverberation conditions in the receiving room. It gives a more subjective performance for a partition depending on how and where it is installed in a building.

So the subscript for the on-site rating is longer than for the laboratory rating, because you need to consider the particular conditions on-site. 

Some early design measures are useful to help pave the way for optimal acoustic conditions without increasing the initial budget.

This post summarises some measures that can be implemented before diving deep into the design. 

    Why are design and/or construction budgets more likely to increase if the acoustic design is implemented late?

Because, if the general design is already set, the acoustic design can only add to and/or sometimes compensate for what has already been developed. Re-design or delay can also happen in some cases.

If an acoustic consultant joins early enough, they can identify which parts of the design will have high-cost implications and suggest ‘cheaper’ alternatives. This could be in:

• suggesting cheaper products that achieve the same performances

• optimising the use of materials or products

• suggesting designs with lower construction costs

Room Geometry

Prior to setting any acoustic criteria, it is important to know the use of each room.

A room could be for:

• teaching theory with no instruments played.
• single musicians or singers to practice.
• small ensemble or group practice.
• loud instruments. 
• large ensemble or group rehearsal.
• performances. 

With this in mind, the acoustician can help you set the right dimensions, volume and shape for each room.

Room dimensions and volume

As mentioned inAcoustic design of schools for performing arts – Part 1: Design aspects, finding a balance between the sound reverberation and the loudness of a room is key to obtain ideal acoustic conditions.

This is done by setting the dimensions and the volume depending on:

• the number of musicians practicing, rehearsing or performing
• the type of music played (amplified or acoustic)
• the instruments likely to play inside (ex: pure singing, quiet instruments or loud instruments) 
• the size of the audience or the orchestra (for performance spaces or rehearsal rooms)

For early guidance on ideal room dimensions and volume, check Acoustic design planning of music spaces. 

Room shape

The shape of a room is a basic feature that allows you to direct the reflected sound where and when you want.

Acoustic experts are unanimous about the shoebox shape for most music spaces. For performance spaces, that shape is useful to reflect sound, coming from the stage, back to the side of the audience. This is proved particularly beneficial for the acoustic comfort of the audience and the perception of the musical performance. 

Other shapes are also well known to be a “no-no” for acoustics. Any domes, curved shapes or hipped roofs can focus sound and should be avoided.  

It is also common practice to angle the opposite walls of small rooms and recording studios. This is avoid any flutter echos and standing waves to be created between parallel walls. 

Building layout

The sound insulation design of a school for performing arts generally requires more consideration and higher performances, leading to higher construction costs. 

You can minimise this by optimising the layout of the school. 

Here is what you could do:

• Position the sensitive spaces away from the loud areas.
• Create acoustic buffers around or adjacent to the sensitive spaces (like the rehearsal and performance spaces). They can be quiet corridors, quiet spaces or lobbies.  
• Position the sensitive spaces away from the external sources of noise. That way, you minimise the need for high performance building façade to control the external noise getting in the building. Buffer areas, like corridors, can also be used in this case.
• Position the loud areas away from the external noise sensitive receptors. This can avoid the need for a high performance façade.

Internal finishes and furniture

For music rooms, especially for the larger spaces dedicated to performances and formal rehearsals, choosing the right finishes and furniture will be one of the most important design tasks. It is also a very specialist, scientific and (even) artistic task.

Although a lot could be said about room acoustic design, below are some general trends that are worth thinking about early.

Sound reverberation at low frequencies

As mentioned in Acoustic design of schools for performing arts – Part 1: Design aspects, if you want large spaces to accommodate acoustic music rehearsals or performances, you need to consider their reverberation characteristics at low frequencies (below 500Hz).

The starting point is to work on the right density and stiffness of the surfaces (walls, floors, ceilings, joinery, sound reflectors/diffusers, etc). You need to find the right balance between:

• The surfaces being too light and flexible, so they absorb too many low frequencies and will cause the music to sound too dry.
• The surfaces being too heavy and stiff, so they don’t absorb enough low frequencies and will cause the music to sound too “boomy”.

Variable acoustics

In some spaces, you may want to be multi-purpose by organising various types of activities and events. These could be acoustic music, quiet music, loud music, amplified music, pure teaching or drama performances. 

Each of these types have different optimal reverberation conditions. You therefore need to be able to change reverberation conditions.

You can do this with variable acoustic systems. Their general principle lies in revealing or hiding an acoustic absorber. So that, a room is less reverberant when the absorber is revealed and more reverberant when the absorber is hidden.

Such systems are:

• Thick acoustic curtains extended along some walls or stored in dedicated cupboards.

• Acoustic banners hung along the walls.

• Rotating acoustic systems that usually have one absorptive surface and another (flat) one reflective. Some systems have a third surface that diffuses the sound.

• Retractable seating that make a room less reverberant when pulled out and more reverberant when stored.

• other systems exist like openable timber slats, panels with variable perforation or even inflatable absorbers (aQflex and aQtube from FlexAcoustics). 

Seating

If you choose to have a performance space for acoustic music (i.e. non amplified), you may want to invest in a high-end seating system. 

In this type of space, most of the acoustic absorption is provided by the audience. Therefore, you run the risk to have very different reverberation conditions depending on the size of the audience.

To avoid this, you can design the seating system to have similar absorption characteristics whether the seats are full and empty.

Also, a good seating system should not generate noise when operated. You don’t want to hear the noise from people walking to or off their seats in the middle of a performance. Neither do you want to hear the noise from the seats tipped up or down.

    Procurement tip: You should purchase the seating system early in a project. And ideally, you should do it outside of the main building contract. This is because the potential laboratory tests of the system selected by the contractor could be delayed and data not available prior to the completion of the design.

Acoustic diffusing surfaces

Diffusing surfaces can be of many forms and shapes. They allow to scatter the reflected sound energy in many directions. 

For some spaces for performing arts, you could benefit from using diffusing surfaces to: 

• avoid flutter echoes and room mode effects from sound waves bouncing back and forth between two hard parallel surfaces. You could also use absorbing materials, but some rooms might sound too dead with the additional absorption. 
• spread the sound energy evenly on an audience or a large ensemble

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